Wrestling...Or is it even wrestling anymore?

[Luke]

I thought i'd start a topic on a once popular subject on the old FSW forum, at that is how wrestling has changed over time, what wrestling is now, and what direction you people think it will take in the future years.

To elaborate on the title of this thread, can the wrestling that is becoming popular with modern wrestling audiences now even really be called wrestling? I think wrestling can be easily related to music genre's...we have the traditional technical style wrestling which is like jazz or classical music in that it's out of mainstream popularity, but still has a minority audience that's interested in it. There is the American style of wrestling that is like rock n roll in that it's consistently popular throughout the years. And then there's Mexican, Japanese and whatever wrestling that again has a minority audience. And finally their is gymnastic wrestling which is wrestling version of pop/boy band music, in that it has an avid short term following. With the main word's being short term.

As far as the modern gymnastic wrestling, it seems to have mixed receptions, some people either love it or hate it, are the people who hate it really just resenting the people who are able to do it? Probably a lot of them are, but their is people who are not and genuinely think it's a load of crap that just isn't wrestling..and i agree with them. But i'm not looking down on people who do gymnastic wrestling as i am just as guilty as them. When looking at FSW the sad (or is it sad?) truth is that probably 95% of the people there would much rather learn to shooting star press and moonsault than ever bother with anything that won't get an instant pop from the crowd. And is that a bad thing? There is no denying that the modern wrestling audience wants spot after spot after spot, so why not forget about doing the moves and holds that the audience couldn't care less about? Why not make every wrestling match just a dance routine, well the biggest argument will be it's just not wrestling, but everyone has a different perception of what wrestling actually is, so it's really just a massive grey area i think.

As for the future...Will gymnastic wrestling keep going and going, no it won't. I think it was Bobby Heenan who said something along the lines of...Gymnastic wrestling will eventually get to a point where it can't progress, and then it will become stale, we see wrestlers doing double moonsaults now...but it will be impossible for someone to do five moonsaults or six moonsaults and when it gets to that point of physical impossibility then the genre will become stale and die. And basically thats what i think, it will eventually get to a point where it can't progress, and then the question will be, what direction will wrestling take then?

What is everyone elses thoughts...gymnastic's in wrestling..good or bad? Is it actually wrestling? How long will it last? What will replace it? etc etc.

[CK Light]

I personally think that there's nothing wrong with "gymnastics" in wrestling, but it's when the flips become more important than the story of the match that etc.... etc.... And that's basically what everyone's gonna say.... Basically because they're right. Good for Jack Evans being able to do a 630, but when he can't do that any more, or when someone can do a 720, no-one will care about him, unless he adds some substance to his matches. If someone like Bret Hart had been able to flip like Jack Evans can then just imagine what he could've done.... And then realise that he probably wouldn't have bothered.

[themiracle]

i used to be impressed by jack evans. but then i downloaded a 3 way dance and he hit something like a 630 corkscrew or something like that in the first 3 minutes of the match, and i just thought "what a way to build it up". after that i became immune to being impressed. Im still impressed by Angles moonsault (although i havent seen it in ages), austin aries' 450 (the impact is great) and RVDs 5 star, because they dont use them every damn minute.

Jack evans' problem is he doesnt seem to have any other offense, and in the long run that will damage his career. After everyone has seen a 1060 flip done 17 times a match, people will move on.

its kinda like hardcore wrestling. people like New Jack are screwed now, because not many people care about Hardcore wrestling, and he has little else to offer.

[Jaqk Halewood]

Your aim when you wrestle is to connect to/with your audience. That's why you tell a story and portray a character in a match. The reason the early-90s WWF "gimmick" era pretty-much bombed was because it was gimmicks at the expense of characters. Generally speaking, people don't care about gimmicks, they care about characters.

If all you do when you wrestle is hit spots, all your audience will care about is the spots. Go back and watch a lot of WWF "attitude" era as well; the crowd popped for each guys 5-or-whatever trademark spots rather than stayed emotionally involved in a match for its entire duration. And the same idea applies to "hardcore"/"garbage"/"death match" wrestling...

Watch the No Mercy '99 and WrestleMania 2000 ladder mathes and hear (it's blatantly clear, too) how the crowd just DIES when they're between spots. That's why they choreographed the TLC match at SummerSlam 2000 in full, rather than planned off a list of spots, to keep the action (and the crowd) active. Of course, the wrestlers involved all being far more over come that time helped matters infinitely.

But yeah, if all the crowd "get" from watching you is spots, not only will you find yourself constantly having to deliver those said spots in every match (regardless of your physical health), but once those spots lose their appeal, or someone comes along with flashier and more physically impressive/creative spots, then so will you (lose your appeal).

It's great that you can do and use big, impressive spots, they will forever help your match and entertain your audience if used "properly", or rather worked into the story of the match and not just threw out for a big/cheap pop when you feel you're losing the crowd reaction.

Granted, maybe I'm "one to talk" given that I'll be using big "signature" bumps for as long as my body will allow me to do so. I realise that the initial reaction a person would probably find to me wrestling is those bumps and, more than likely, there'll be pressure on me to deliver big bumps regardless of whatever the state of my physical health. But I'd always try to throw just one or two out in the face shine, and then when I take control, beat the hell out of the face to the point where everyone wants me to get I disagree kicked for me to get my commupence rather than to just see me take this bump or that bump and go "oooooh".

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The same idea applies to hardcore wrestling. The "New Jack" philosophy, so to speak, the one used by guys in CZW and too many "hardcore" wrestlers, really, of just knocking f**k out of one another with whatever weapons you can find, will only lead to having to find more dangerous and gory weapons and almost certainly at some point result in the in-ring death of a performer.

Compare that, though, to the more regarded FMW matches. They don't just clobber each other with the weapons for no reason, they'll build it up, tease someone going into the barbed-wire a few times before actually delivering upon it. As a result I ALWAYS get chills down my spine from the sheer drama of a fair amount of those matches. The weapons and brutality in a death match have the affect of adding incredible amounts of unparalled drama because of the brutality and the violence and beacuse you know whatever guy falls into them is going to get hurt. The same way the flashy aerial spots will always get a bigger reaction than more "run-of-the-mill" moves. But they'll only continue to do so if you don't sacrifice the story of the match in favour of the flashy spot and the cheap pop.

[drain]

its wierd because chri$ ca$h did all the insane things in czw and died because of a moter bike.

i just relsied that post had nothing to do with the subject ,sorry

[foleymark]

Might as well close this thread after Jack's post. lol

[Jaqk Halewood]

When are people gonna realise that name-dropping CZW is always going to ruin a perfectly-good topic, the same way "Jeff Hardy" is always gonna bring up a big long debate that we've already done before...

[Rocket Moose]

I think there will always be a place for actual wrestlers and that will never go away, from Lou Thesz to Bruno Sammartino to Bret Hart to Chris Benoit. We talk about how hardcore wrestling and spotfest have become the flavor of the decade but wasn't it the same in the 80s with BIG wrestlers. While Chris Benoit, Rey Mysterio, Shawn Michaels and the Big Show all exist I think wrestling is still balanced at least at the top

[drain]

i think wrestling evolves with time as dose most mediums, peopels attention span gets shorter as time progresses , just like 10 years ago a kid could play a sega megadrive and be on the edge of his seat for a hour, with the relise of x box and playstation ,now they'd get bored after about a minute. someone once told me if you watch tv now a camera shot normally dosn't last for more then 10 seconds because attention span is shorter. if wwe started having 10 minute long submission holds matches their audience would deterate quikly

[S!S!B!]

But in the same way people lose interest in the sega after the playstation was launched once you bring back the "Old-school" Sega people go "oh yeah, I remember that It was cool" and start playing it again. similar with wrestling if you starve someone if a certain wrestling style for long enough it becomes cool again like for a while Wrestling fans were still into Cena until he kept he matches the same and people became bored of them yet every single fan who watched smackdown was loving Benoit vs Regal because although we'd all seen it before we hadn't seen anyone wrestle that style In a while and people loved seeing it again

[drain]

so the idea is to do this gymnastic wrestling untill it gets boring and then go back to old school style and back and forth?
or should we be looking for something completly diffent